Talk:Mother

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2021

Goddess Parvati is a widely revered deity, who holds paramount significance in the Hindu culture. Although the image of her breastfeeding Lord Ganesha is to portray a motherly activity, the sight of a deity’s breasts pictured is deemed unholy, disrespectful and obscene. It is my sincere request to replace it with a woman’s image after her consent or any drawing that not provocative and doesn’t hurt any community’s sentiments. 2604:2800:1:3C90:BC97:D27D:6A20:E40C (talk) 19:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

The image is in the religious subsection. It would make no sense to replace it a random image of a woman. Wikipedia is not censored and the image itself is not inherently offensive. The image in question dates to 1820 and wasn't created for the article. Notfrompedro (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Then go a cover all erotic sculptures at Khajuraho. ChandlerMinh (talk) 13:16, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

LGBT motherhood

While I do appreciate the efforts of editors, I'm doubting whether the section LGBT motherhood gives due weight to the subject. The section takes up about one fifth of the word count of the whole article and is larger than both the lead section and Biological motherhood section. I'm suggesting to at least cut down the 'Trans motherhood' subsection to a single short paragraph, but I'm honestly not a fan of dedicating a whole section to this. However you look at it, LGBT motherhood is not nearly as prevalent as the 'mainstream' motherhood. If someone else has any suggestions or counter-arguments, please discuss. Otherwise, I'll be WP:BOLD. Cheers, Pyrite Pro (talk) 19:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Pyrite Pro, please do. I agree that section is too long and even intended to address this after the WP:Student editor wrote it, but never got around to it. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:06, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Crossroads, I'm working on a draft of several sections, such to replace the Biological mother, Non-biological mother and LGBT motherhood sections by one larger section containing different types of motherhood. In here, I drastically shortened the LGTB motherhood (sub)section. Would you care to review? It's in my user space. Cheers, Pyrite Pro (talk) 21:14, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Looks good, though I would replace the uses of "transsexual" with "transgender" since people tend to say the former is outdated as an umbrella term (some use it, but not all). Thanks. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:03, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Cheers, Pyrite Pro (talk) 10:27, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Changes applied as discussed. Pyrite Pro (talk) 10:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

The paragraph "Transgender motherhood refers to the parenting relationship between a transgender parent and their child. Transgender men may have biological children when they have not had a hysterectomy before carrying and giving birth to children" has now been removed by User:Tamzin, with the explanation that transmen are fathers not mothers. But given that in the legislation of many countries transmen are actually mothers, I think that the paragraph should stay. If there is a need of a separate section about transgender motherhood (that's a big if, because discussion of trans motherhood could be integrated in the article text, without a special section) than it has to address transmen too.2A02:2F0F:B1FF:FFFF:0:0:6463:C21D (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:55, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Do we have any reliable sources that refer to trans men who have children as being mothers? The one source that was cited for inclusion in fact said the exact opposite, with a section on "Institutional erasure" that clearly takes the position that trans male parents are fathers, not mothers: Finally, most men in this study reported that it was difficult or impossible to be listed as ‘father’ on their child’s birth certificate, despite this being their parental identity. Some had to undertake a legal battle, or even adopt their own children, in order to be legally recognized as a father. Note that a law is not a reliable source, except for the assertion that the law exists. Some countries' laws categorize gay people as perverts, or Jews as traitors, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia needs to defer to those definitions. We follow the academic sources, which overwhelmingly refer to trans men as a subset of men, mothers as a subset of women, and thus trans men as not mothers. You're saying that trans men being parents should be discussed, and it is, in an article linked from the hatnote I added: Transgender pregnancy. Father should also have at least a sentence or two on the topic, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

FWIW, if there's a concern on DUE-ness, I wouldn't object to combining the "Transgender motherhood" section with the preceding one for a "Lesbian, bisexual, and transgender motherhood" section. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 00:10, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Your claim "Note that a law is not a reliable source, except for the assertion that the law exists" is incorrect. The law is a reliable source for providing definitions and an understanding of notions, because the law is, or is supposed to be, the result of social consensus. And the reason why most countries consider a person who gives birth (regardless of gender identity) a mother is in order for this person to have the special legal and medical protections associated with biological motherhood; if such person wasn't legally a birth mother, and was a father, than such person would be deprived of such protections (perhaps this is more difficult to understand for Americans because in the US motherhood has very few protections). Note that motherhood is protected in many international conventions, including in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states at Article 25 "2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance", and this is translated in laws all over the world. The protections for birth mothers are many, including special protections in the workforce regarding leave (pre-natal and post-natal), hazardous working conditions for pregnant and breastfeeding mothers, protections against unlawful termination from job, numerous medical protections in the healthcare. All these protections are given to birth mothers; and if a person giving birth would not be legally a mother that could be detrimental to that person. Maternal mortality and maternal health are all very important and refer to birth mothers, and excluding transmen who give birth from the definition of mother would not be to their benefit. And last but not least, the section should present the subject from a global perspective, and not focus on the United States; giving WP:UNDUE to one country is not acceptable. 2A02:2F0F:B1FF:FFFF:0:0:6463:C21D (talk) 01:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Find some reliable secondary sources that refer to trans men who have children as "mothers", and we can talk. Otherwise everything you're saying is original research and improper synthesis. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 01:50, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

No, you find a reliable source which says that the global consensus (that is, all over the world; please remember that the United States =/= the world) is that a transman giving birth is a father. As I pointed out, the law is a reliable source. Here is a ruling from the UK (about Freddy McConnell) [1] which clearly enshrines the fact that a transman who gives birth is legally a mother (and that's the UK, a Western country with some of the most developed transgender rights and protections in the world). 2A02:2F0F:B1FF:FFFF:0:0:6463:C21D (talk) 02:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

You're arguing for inclusion. The onus is on you to show usage in reliable sources. Laws are primary sources, which in general are only reliable in terms of proving what they themselves say. The reason is that all laws need to be interpreted, and citing only a law leaves content open to the interpretations of any editor, like you're doing right now. That's original research. Furthermore, the legal sense of a term is not necessarily the sense Wikipedia uses. Per WP:SOURCETYPES, secondary sources are strongly preferred to primary, for these reasons. So please find some reliable secondary sources saying "a trans man who has a child is a mother"—not "a court ruled that a trans man who had a child was a mother", but, in the eyes of the secondary source itself, that he in fact is a mother—and then, again, we can talk. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 02:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Converting chart for visually impaired

Can someone convert the material within this image used in §Social role, into a chart as described at MOS:DTAB? This would make the information accessible to visually impaired readers, and bring into compliance with MOS:ACCIM. Chart would also be more readily updatable, as contributors could edit it with simple text. Thank you. -- dsprc ^[talk] 15:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

The first first thing that came out was a picture from a movie

The only way I could see that was to say the word and I was going through a whole lot and then it just started coming back to bite and then it was just a bunch more of the way I had a little more of the other stuff that was in the bag…..,,,, 2600:1700:291:DCA0:659E:8E9B:635F:1930 (talk) 01:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)